GP raises some interesting points. I would note, however, that if Board members are corresponding among themselves using e-mail, you have exactly the same problems with these e-mails being subject to discovery in a lawsuit. The distinction between intra-Board and Board-to-shareholder e-mail is artificial.

Not that I suggest abandoning e-mail; quite the contrary. Just follow some common-sense guidelines:

* Treat e-mail exactly as you would a letter. Recognize that everything you write may ultimately be read by an opposing attorney in a lawsuit.

* Use only your personal account for sending e-mail.

* Don't use "It's only e-mail" as an excuse for writing illiterate gibberish. (This is good policy in general.)

I have a building where there was a similar problem.
I had someone come in and seal up the complaining apartments behind the stove, sink, dishwasher, heat risers, molding gaps, etc.. he also poisoned and used steel wool (not brillo). In addition, every basement hole was filled with poison and then sealed; all garbage and open food MUST be removed ASAP from the areas.... In addition to this, I purchased the sonic plugins for several apartments.. they did work very well.

You will get a foul odor for several days, but that is a good thing, because the smell and the mice will soon be gone!

note: many people state that the plug-ins do not work well, it is because the mice get used to the sound. The frequency must be changed every few months for them to remain effective.

Smaller note: Typically and as a rule of thumb, if you have mice, you do not have rats and visa versa… for some reason they do not like to cohabitate. If you do have both, there is a greater problem.

~AR

Actually, the reason they don't cohabitate is that rats eat mice.

I've always found that the best weapon against both is the oldest weapon against both: If there's a cat around, you do not get mice or rats. You may find one out in the open early on -- likely with its head bitten off -- and after all, all the other rodents get the message. Works every time.

A cat lives in the unit where there is a problem-what's up with that? I can't get a cat, I'm allergic. How can the exterminator get to the holes behind cabinetry? Ripping it out and renovating is not an option for me. They have done all the things you mentioned except for the plug ins. I guess I will try that. And maybe we need to find a new exterminator to get a fresh pair of eyes on the problem?

Another pair of eyes is always a good idea. Very odd that the cat you mention apparently doesn't go after the mice -- maybe it's old, blind, etc.? That happens.

Hypoallergenic cats exist, but they're very expensive so that's not option for most people. Less expensive are cat-allergy medications, but unless one is a dyed-in-the-wool cat-lover (definitely not me, by the way), that's an awful lot of trouble, expense and dedication.

The most reassuring thing I can offer is that the board is facing a warrant of habitability issue, not to mention most likely NYC Dept. of Health issues, and is responsible for fixing the problem. If the only way to fix it is to rip out and replace the walls, then that's at the board's expense.

If your board is balky, get in touch with Dept. of Health. Rats and mice have spread pandemics, and NYC history is full of localized outbreaks related to rodents. This is a serious issue that goes beyond one building, and the board has to step up its game.

JB, I am on the Board and the other members are aware of the situation. If I present them with ripping my kitchen cabinets out to get to the walls and fill all holes, I'm wondering who pays for what? There's the demo work, then the patching and then I would need carcasses and cabinets for the cabinets, new sink, washing machine, countertops etc. We're looking at a $10K cost here for new half a kitchen and I think that would be my expense. I just don't have that kind of $$ to take that expense on. And a cat is not an option--my dog would not like that one bit.

"The unit below me will not let our exterminator in" - If the unit below you has mice, they need to have an exterminator visit!

Pest control is the problem of the whole co-op, and shareholders who refuse to cooperate are in the wrong. Check your by-laws, but I'm willing to bet the co-op board has the right to force them to let an exterminator in.

Our board's standard line:
"If you have any questions or comments talk to the property manager, the super, or any board member."

First and foremost board members are shareholders and are deserving of the same right to privacy and quiet enjoyment in their domicile as any other resident

In our co-op, all communication is via the Management Office. It could be in a sealed envelope to be delivered to a Board Member or it could be sent as an open letter via the Management Office to the Board Member. Alternatively a shareholder may employ the USPS.

Regardless, it is our practice that all letters whether sealed or unsealed, addressed to the President only, addressed to one or a few Board Member or addressed to all Board Members receive the following treatment:
1. The original is time stamped and placed in the resident’s permanent folder (a history of everything and anything to do with the resident, e.g.: all communications, notes, warnings, etc.)
2. A copy is made and sent in the Friday management package to all Board Members and the co-op’s attorney. Yes, every Friday the property Manager sends a status report, letters, notes received, actions taken by the attorney, etc. Monthly the financials are sent in a similar manner.

We have a strict no distribution rule such that no one is permitted to place a note under or on any resident’s door.

Our attorney will send a warning note that one has violated the house rules, if one does in fact place a note or letter under a resident's door.

A shareholder can also write to the co-op's attorney if an egregious event has occurred or if one has concerns regarding health and habitability.
- - - - - - - - - -
Further, I should mention that we are not callous, in that if any board member receives a letter, via the office or USPS, we do read it and typically we will determine who should respond, e.g.: attorney, manager or board member.
- - - - - - - - - -
But, for day to day activities, events, repairs, questions, etc. all should be aware that the board members are not the intermediaries.
- - - - - - - - - -

we have a suggestion box where a board member checks several times a month.
the board member will either e-mail or at the next meeting share these comments. hopefully getting a constructive response.
we also started a grievence committee. this was set up to resolve issues between shareholders, without the board getting involved.
our committee consists of 4 members, 2 from the board & 2 shareholders.
if more info is needed, please write

JV makes a valid point in that Board members are Shareholders also and have the right to the same quiet peaceful enjoyment of their homes as you do. They do not like to be confronted in the halls, etc. any more than you would.

It is for this reason that a good property manager must be the buffer between the residents and the Board. This is what he is being paid for (among other things).

If your grievance is with the manager, or Management Company, then inform the manager that you wish to be present at the next board meeting or write a letter for the MA to provide to all board members (sealed as another poster recommended)

This to me is a good reason to have a bulletin board &/or a blog spot on your web site.

~AR

Thank you to those who responded.

I cannot speak for others in our co-op but I myself have never seeked out a Board member to complain or address an issue. I would never think to go to there home or anything along those line. I hope that others did not think I was suggesting such a thing.

I do not communicate with our Board/Managment office all that much. Not too many issues arise that I've needed to do that. Though, on a few occassions I have emailed our managment office asking that my question or concern be forwarded to our Board and I get an instant reply with an answer. If I persist that I want my message forwarded managment can be a bit snippy.

An example would be expressing interest in an online blog/co-op website. My email will be replied to withing a few minutes with a no and why they are a bad idea. I would be fine with that if I knew it was my Board responding and perhaps it is a similar response they just gave another Shareholder and thus a reply has already been drafed of sorts but I can never gather that. It is hard to tell who is saying what since this far our Board only issues one Newletter a year. So outside of that Newsletter I only hear from the Board once a year at the Annual Meeting. Not having any other access to them and a managment company that likes to shot down all ideas or suggestions and it's just an odd place to be in.

I do think Board members do an extream amount of work. It seems to be a full time job ontop of a paying job. I appreciate the effort and work that Boards put into their co-op and that holds true for my co-op as well. This is my first time living in a co-op and perhaps everything our building is experiencing is normal. I don't know. However, hearing from my Board in writting once a year and in person once a year and no way to know that you are communicating with them when you reach out... one feels a bit lost and out of the loop. As I expressed in my previous post, many Shareholders are pushing for a website to assist with communication but our managment office has pushed hard against it and keeps insisting to our Board that it is a bad idea.

Thanks again!

It's going to depend on both the size of your building and the style of your Board. In a large building, the policy of "Everything goes through the managing agent" may well be a necessity to preserve the sanity of Board members.

Once you get down to about 50 units, however, it's more a matter of style. Some Boards prefer to keep things formal, with the managing agent as the point of contact. Our Board is more hands-on: everyone in the building has the e-mail address of the Board president (me) and is free to contact me directly if they choose. We suggest that for day-to-day problems, residents first contact the super, and then the managing agent, but they are always free to talk to any Board member. People seem to appreciate the openness, and so far, no one has abused the process.

Check our web site, at www.thepinehurst.org, which has been in existence for a year and a half.

We've had no adverse reactions whatsoever. In fact, our only challenge has been to get more residents to use it -- we share lots of information on the site's Residents' and Construction pages. Having just replaced every window in every apartment, the Construction page was a fantastic way to help residents schedule their installations.

We also post various forms so shareholders don't have to contact the property manager and wait for the mail to deliver a sublease agreement, the pet rules (and city dog license form), STAR application, house rules, and the like.

The site is maintained and managed by the Board.

Please take a look and see what you think.

I took a quick peek and the site is great! It appears to have a great deal of information and easy accesses to forms and such. Wonderful Q&A section!

Can I ask two more questions….

- You say that the board maintains the site. Does it require an excessive amount of time? Our board (being newer) is trying to learn how to juggle things and they are a bit overwhelmed.

- Does your site allow for Shareholders to communicate back and forth? It does not seem to be the case and I wonder if there was a reason this was done.

Again, great site. Thanks for sharing it.

Thanks, Pam.

The only thing that's time-consuming is the Events page. Take it away, and I probably spend 5-10 minutes a day on it, 5 days a week. That's just updating the Residents' notes or changing a photo to match the season (i.e. snow in the winter).

The Board discussed allowing responses, but decided that we didn't want to be in the position of moderating posts (which could lead to charges of favoritism or censorship), and the alternative, letting anyone post anything, didn't sit well with us either.

As it happens, no one in our building has asked to make his or her own post. They have asked that we post various neighborhood events, however, which we're happy to do.

While I completely sympathize with your Board's decision not to make possible any online Shareholder free-for-all, did you consider offering anyone who wants one, a blog? I'd be very surprised if the Shareholders who are most involved and most creative turned down THAT offer; several organizations find that it also fosters involvement, especially if the bloggers are artistic types, like painters, writers, photographers (and NYC certainly has more than its share!) and somewhat interesting to read. The Pinehurst seems to encourage its residents to be involved, judging from the events page in particular... it could certainly be a selling point to potential buyers if their residency included a free blog. : )

I find that Apple's iWeb is very easy-to-use and comfortable, once you get past the brief learning curve and your own tech-hesitancy factor. It's a piece of cake to add a blog to your website using this application, too. (And the format is EXCELLENT for updating events... you have an archive, so people don't have to scroll down 15 pages to find something that happened awhile back... they just click on the archived entry, and voila! You can also have a number of active events on the landing page. [Disclaimer: I do not own a penny of Apple stock. Wish I did, though. ha]

If co-ops out there - especially small ones - want to start their own website, I highly recommend giving it a shot yourself. I haven't had a chance to do one for my own business yet (too busy!), but I've been doing one for a community organization with multiple committees, multiple minutes, etc. and it's quite doable even if you've never done a website yourself before. I'd done planning or creative work on some, but never touched the actual structure until iWeb. If you can think in a straight line from A to B, and imagine what responses or questions a design or issue might raise, planning ahead before you do any real work - you can make a dynamite website without paying someone else to do it. You can even video your Annual Meeting and put it online for those who missed it... if you want to, of course.

I mean no offense or denigration, to professional web designers out there - after working on this first one, my hat is off to them BIG-TIME for the work they do for corporations, etc. But if you're strictly bells, and don't need too many whistles, I say: give it a shot.

Feel free to write me off-line if you want to learn more about a "do-it-yourself" project.

I am currently building a website for my company. Along with it will be an individual site for each building that will have a secure area for the buildings respective documents, forms, etc... another section for board members only (requiring separate login) to chat, run conversation strings, etc... and a public bulletin board for resident conversations (and much more)... residents can have their own RESIDENT@YourBuilding.com email address

My point is if you can do it, do it. Your Management &/or Board is over analytical.. ask them to site a single lawsuit to you with respect to the areas???

Another idea is to use third party providers such as the one that host this Habitat board http://yourwebapps.com/

A site manager will still have to moderate and review the site to remove any spam or unwanted/unpleasant thoughts of residents & posters. I have several sites that I put in safeguards for these items, i.e. The IP addresses of all posters are captured as well as others…

The issue you posted with regard to your manager being strongly against it… probably lies in the fact that the manager may feel that it will become his/her responsibility, or in that it will be a place where residents can publicly announce managements faults, and it will be a dart board rather than a bulletin board.

If your building has a contracted cable company, you can probably work a deal with them for a dedicated IP internet service for the building. You then create a server from an old PC which will double as your web server and a gateway for the new wireless internet you now supply your residents in the Laundry room and other public areas… (this also forces them to your website) There are so many advantages and added amenities you can provide residents by doing this.

There are also many inexpensive hosting providers out there if you do not wish to build your own server (hostgator.com), but I strongly suggest your own.

Go for it!

~AR

PS
let me know if you decide to move forward and need any assistance...

AR – thanks for your great insight and detailed feedback. It’s helpful to read.

I think building a site is a wonderful idea and a great way to customize though I fear our Board would see this as a huge undertaking. I don’t think any of the members are knowledgeable on this and they are probably not open to seeking Shareholder assistance. I assume (though I could be wrong) that the easiest way to get this approved at this time is to provide them with a few companies that host similar sites and a STRONG argument on why this is a good idea.

Unfortunately I am not complete yet to give you the URL.. and I do not believe there is anything like that as yet.. but there are allot of good examples out there... here is one with a discussion Board:
http://www.50lexington.com/50lexington/discussionboard.htm

and another good one without:
http://www.londonterracetowers.com/
(they do have their own internet and server, etc)

~AR

Here's something that might work well for you and suit your purposes: http://mybuilding.org/

Our building has its own site, but we have the problem another poster mentioned of actually getting folks to use it. We're lucky to have a web developer in our building who kindly did the site for us pro bono (his way of cooperating or giving back). It's a dynamic database-driven site that is easy to maintain; it's simple but it does the trick. I believe I remember him mentioning that he would charge around 8-10K for similar.

If you're at all web or programming-savvy, check out drupal.org for an opensource (free) content management system that is pretty easy to get up and running out of the box.

Another thing to think about: some management companies now offer co-op intranets. We have recently interviewed two who offer this as part of their package. Example: http://coopersquare.com/public-dyn/resident_services.cfm?idNwsId=151

Good luck and keep us posted!

Thanks much!

The links are very helpful. I think it will be useful to supply these to our Board so that they have a starting point if they do decide to look into doing this.

Again, thank you! thank you! thank you!

I may be a little late to this party, but for the better part of the last year many of my clients have been interested in developing websites for the community to use. I'm a very big proponent for using them on the Management end, as when I develop the website I place all of the information that most residents will call us for and ask for directly on there. (See www.BurnsStreet.com as an example of one website)

This has been especially helpful when I'm setting up a new client, as I can start day one with a new website for the building as well as all of the contact information for Management as well as a way to get in touch with the Board. It only takes me a few hours to get it rolling and slight upkeep throughout the year.

I can see how some companies may not want to have a website for a Cooperative or Condo as they feel it increases a certain amount of liability, but I always create a password protected "Directors" section where only the Board will have access. These sections house minutes, financials, statements, contracts and any other important information. Non-protected areas are important announcements, applications, house rules, etc. We don't have forums on these sites, as those are difficult to moderate and you'll often find that things can get out of hand.

Management of a building takes many tools and this is one tool that I'm utilizing and I feel that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.If have the skills to do it, why not use them for something that everyone can gain from.

Very helpful response. WordPress is a good option.

Check this article on a couple, three companies that do sites specifically for co-ops/condos:

http://www.habitatmag.com/publication_content/2009_february/web_exclusive_adaptations/getting_linked_with_building_web_apps

Thanks, AR.

We have found the chart useful because it shows our shareholders that the rate they're paying is in line for our neighborhood. (As you know, it's easy to feel that the maintenance is lower on the other side of the street.)

The facts help us show that if we don't increase our maintenance, we'll fall behind our neighbors and have to cut services.

There are several factors to take into consideration, just to toss out a few...

Is the amount that the current facility taking in enough to sustain and warrant the aquisitino and maitenance of new machines?

Who will perform the ongoing maintenance?
Who will be responsible for the finances on a monthly basis?
Coin / card system?
Change machine... more maintenance... card machine…. same

Another option is to add a few dollars onto everyone’s maintenance per month and make it a "free" amenity

You can call speed queen or some other vendors who also sell refurbished machines already with the coin/card setup and with a warrantee for less money

~AR

My building (115 apartments) switched in 2006. We bought new, water-conserving machines ($25,000), operated by a plastic card; you pay for time on the card by inserting cash into a wall-mounted gizmo. It won't accept a credit card; for that, I think you need a phone line. We retained Coinmach to provide repairs when needed and pick up the cash monthly(our managing agent doesn't allow its employees to handle cash,and we didn't want to put that responsibility on our super).

Coinmach is slow in remitting the receipts to us and sometimes slow in responding to service requests. It is also charging us something like $280 a month, which seems very high to me. There was a lower cost service provider (about $180/month, I think) called Mac Gray (I think) and I don't know why we kept Coinmach. After deducting these costs, we are clearing about the same as or a little more than the amount we used to get when Coinmach owned the machines and paid us a monthly fee, namely $900-1,000 a month. It took us a little more than 2 years to amortize the cost of the new machines.

Residents are happy with the switch.

6

I've lived in two co-ops. One owned and serviced its own machines, the other had machines owned and serviced by an outside company.

The co-op that owned its own machines rarely repaired them (I don't know if that's because mgt couldn't be bothered, or the board was too cheap, or some other reason). I didn't get a refund for months until I finally got the property maganer on the phone (he didn't return calls).

In the other co-op, repair calls were made directly to the company that owned them; I got an e-mail back within 12 hours and the repair was nearly always made the next business day. Refunds took a few weeks.

Hey Scrub-a-bud,

Thanks for your reply. Do you recall the name of the vendor (Coinmach, Herclues, etc..) that was used in the "other Coop" that seemed to be responsive to repair issues?

Thanks,
Dom

Hi, Dom,
Sorry for the delay. Hercules was the reliable and quick-responding firm.

There are some high-tech options available from two or three companies, including Coinmach.

Check out this Habitat article:

http://www.habitatmag.com/publication_content/2009_february/web_exclusive_adaptations/getting_linked_with_building_web_apps

My best advice is NEVER go in house. There are more problems than you can imagine and it is not worth it at all. The cooperative will not make more money doing this. The laundry room should not be looked upon as a source of income but rather an amenity that should not cost the cooperative to operate. Should one machine needs replacement it will take at least several months to make up the expense of buying a new one. When you have a vendor doing it it will not cost the building a penny. Think of all the complaints that you will receive, and who will collect the money and make deposits to the bank, not the management company, it's not their job. I could go on and on but I think you get the idea.

Dom - You didn't mention the size of your building. How many apartments does your coop have? Also, how many washers & dryers would you need if you went in-house with your laundry facilities?

Our building has 64 units and 2 laundry room. We currently have 3 washers and 4 dryers in each room.

Dom: I agree with other posters that going in-house with laundry facilities isn't worth it financially and will create more work and give you a lot of problems you don't need.

Also, why 2 laundry rooms with 3 washers and 4 dryers in each room for 64 apts? We have 1 laundry room with 3 washers and 4 dryers for 60 apts, and that's enough. Why not use the second room for bldg equipment - or put storage units/bike racks in that room and make some money for the coop by charging residents a reasonable fee to use it?

Our building with 23 units per floor on 22 floors has two washing machines and two dryers per floor. And our house rules prohibit washer/dryers in any apartment.

We have a maintenance staff – our own employees.

We have porters who clean the rooms – our own employees.

We do collect a sum of money each month, from the outside staff.

We would not consider bringing the function in house – we don’t need the headaches and the burden of answering queries and trouble calls on a daily basis.

For us we see value in the existing proposition.

12345

make sure whatever company you bring in pays to paint the laundry room, puts in floortiles, etc. they will also usually give you a few pieces of furniture as well as thousand up front as the contract is invaluable to them. also they must give you a monthly statement of exactly how much money the machine is making so you get your correct percentage. very very important to use side loading machines (use less water costing the coop less) and also have one large machines so people can do comforters, etc.

bargain with all companies very carefully.

I would rather borrow from a spiteful in-law than have my co-op borrow from a shareholder.

Even if your attorney, accountant and property manager give you a thumbs-up (and I'd bet a year's maintenance that they don't), doing business with friends is never a good idea.

Do business with a business whose business is making loans. If you borrow from a neighbor you'll probably be back here in a few years asking for advice on how to get out of the deal.

I have to agree that it's a bad idea to do business with friends. I don't know what the project entails but it could present problems with control as well. Not unlike the current TARP situation on Wall Street, if this wealthy shareholder lends the corporation money, she could feel entitled to control the project because she is providing the money and the board may feel obligated to agree.

You say that the amount is relatively small - with that in mind I don't think the savings you may realize is worth the potential risk to the relationship with your shareholder.

I agree with WAB that borrowing money from a SH for a capital project could also present control problems. The SH might want a say in how "her" money is spent. She might want to see contractor bids, have a say in deciding what contractor the project is given to, see and OK invoices for the work before they are paid, etc. Unless she is a BM or is on a committee for the project, there are aspects of this that she shouldn't be involved in. There are many ways the relationship between coop and SH could suffer in this situation, and the project could suffer too.

CDT: Legal issues aside, if your SH lends money to your coop, she's really lending it to all the SHs. I don't think it would sit well with them no matter how good the terms are. She may hold it over them, and unless she's a very community-conscious, selfless person, she expects something out of it. Maybe just having everyone say how wonderful she is, or maybe she wants to run for the Board and hopes SHs will vote for her out of guilt because she did something for them. I'd question the motives of anyone who made an offer like this. Just my opinion.

The best solution I have ever encountered was as brilliant as it was expensive: electric heaters under the sidewalk. On West 43rd Street. No matter the weather, there was never snow, ice, slush or anything worse than water on the concrete. I just walked by it, so know nothing about the installation or cost.

the question is: what is it?

A good super and a broom :-)

http://www.safepaw.com/

I am a reident manager, on day like today get your hose out and wash your side walk.Calcium chloride is a better alternative then rock salt.

Here's something that may help. It ran as part of Habitatmag.com's "Friday New Produsts" --

EnvironMelt Green De-Icer

http://habitatmag.com/publication_content/previous_new_products/environmelt_green_de_icer

In addition to the usual coat or raincoat for the dog, what about boots. They don't like it, but there are such things. As AR suggests, sweeping the sidewalks and ensuring that the salt is not dumped by the trees and shrubs. It will also damage their roots.

AdC

With all due respect, AdC.... ever try to fit a boot onto a small dog? Let alone FOUR of them? And try to keep them on their feet?

The salt being used by most buildings/supers is awful. Bad for the environment, bad for dogs, bad for trees/plants.... and most supers use way, way too much of it at the first sign of snow so they won't have to shovel anything.

right on man. it is so they dont have to shovel. that is the truth. plain and simple. it is terrible stuff - that salt.

While you may take these preventative steps to ensure that harmful chemicals are not used, your neighbors may not.

Each pet owner has to decide for themselves how much trouble they are willing to go through for their pet based on their own level of concern and love for their pet. I believe AdC is only adding a layer of protection for your pets safety, and I concur. If you decide to have a pet in the city you should be aware of the added menaces, perils and responsibilities that come with it… So if it means booties on the pup to help him & maintain his health, then why not?

And yes, supers do throw unnecessary salt to ease their workload; it is somewhat justifiable in heavier weather where the salt will be quickly dissolved. Although they should be using a greener alternative, the fact is that it is more expensive and many buildings would not approve of the super purchasing a $25 bag of the alternative (calcium chloride, etc..) over the $8 per bag of rock salt. My supers also keep sand on hand for lighter snow or ice days; afterwards it is swept up.

~AR