You should be able to sell your co-op under these circumstances. The co-op would recover all past due maintenance at the closing, meaning that you'll receive less $$, but the debt would be gone.

You should ask the Board and/or the Building Manager to confirm that you'll be allowed to do this.

Good luck.

No, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's improper. The specter of contagion from the active virus being left on surfaces after someone moves out is very real, although the longevity of surface contact has been greatly reduced.

Before getting upset, find out what the fee covers. Then do your homework in Google to see if the fee being charged is customary for the work being done. You might ask them for the name of the hazmat company performing the work. You'll probably be told the building super or porter will do the actual sanitizing.

You should then ask for a certification document listing all the areas sanitized, in case you are sued by the next occupant if they claim they contracted COVID-19 from an improperly cleaned apartment. There are probably specs somewhere on the internet on what is considered proper cleaning.

It's a very gray area. If they hire a company or a porter has to spend extra time doing an additional level of cleaning, they are entitled to reimbursement. But if they want to charge you $500 for an hour's extra work by a building employee, it's borderline scam.

Your question made me curious so I did a little research. This article may help: https://aagla.org/2020/06/post-covid-cleaning-and-turnover-protocols-for-your-rental-property/

This is a judgment call on your part. Good luck!

Hi Steven424:
Appreciate your reply and let me give more details: This is a Coop in New York, the article you refer to is from the Apartment Association of Greater Los Angeles, this is a Coop in New York and not an apartment building and not a Condo, it is a New York Coop that is charging shareholders who sold their unit a Covid Sanitation fee of $300 to move out.

I realize I asked a generalize question and should have said this is not sanitation of the interior of a unit.
This is a fee to wipe down the building’s front door knob and elevator knob.
This is not ‘an additional level of cleaning’ this is literally spraying disinfectant and wiping down the front door and elevator knobs with a paper towel. Again this is not an interior sanitation of a unit. This fee is specifically aimed at shareholders using a licensed and insured Professional Moving Company. If a person has 15 friends help them move their belongings out of the building, there is no Covid Sanitation Fee charged and there is no sanitation of the front door or elevator knobs.

Again the cleaning is supposed to happen after the movers have completed the move. While the movers are doing their work, there are residents entering and exiting the building at the same time who are not wearing masks or gloves; the movers are wearing masks and gloves.
While the movers are actively carrying belongings out of the building there is no sanitation happening, so if Covid were to enter into the building it could easily be from those residents not wearing masks or gloves or from anyone entering the building at that time.

If the 15 friends are doing the move out, the Coop cannot and is not requiring the friends wear masks or gloves and the Coop is not sanitizing the front door or elevator knobs after the 15 friend complete the move out. The movers are wearing masks and gloves. If the shareholder does not pay the $300 sanitizing fee they are prohibited from moving out, so the shareholder is being forced to pay the $300 fee in order to simply move out, which is an essential event.

The Coop is not charging Covid Sanitation fees for construction work. Construction workers are removing demo debris and bringing in materials and gear, going in and out for lunch over the span of a week or weeks and for full 8 hour work days, renovating a kitchen is not essential, new carpeting is not essential, moving was deemed essential.

Let’s get into what they are sanitizing:
#1 the front door knobs
#2 the elevator door knob at the lobby entrance
#3 the interior elevator push panel
#4 the elevator knobs on the floor of the shareholder moving out

That is 4 contact points, how long would you say it takes to wipe down 4 contact points? Not an hour, it should be 15 minutes maximum but more like 8 minutes maximum, right?
How much does a roll of paper towel cost? Let’s say $5 and that is generous.
How much for four sprays of Lysol? $15.00 and that is generous.
There should be no labor costs as the sanitizing is happening during the Super’s work day. This 8 minute chore should not be a burden on the Super’s schedule as move-outs are not happening every day, maybe one or two move outs a month. The Coop is already purchasing sanitation supplies in bulk so the cost is lower than $20 for four sheets of paper towel and four sprays of Lysol.

Keep in mind, when a shareholder sells their unit they are required to pay a capital improvement fee back to the Coop which depending upon the unit shares ranges from $1,500 to $4,500 or more and that is hefty sum to leave behind.

I did ‘do your homework’ and found no info that licensed insured professional moving companies specifically increase the risk of Covid which is why I asked if anyone heard of charging a Covid fee specifically for moving out. I wasn’t really seeking an opinion about risks of Covid or concerns of being sued as it would be very difficult to prove where someone contracted Covid. I wanted to know if any Coop was charging a Covid Sanitizing fee for door and elevator knobs which targets those who moved out using a licensed and insured Professional Moving Company.

The building is allowing shareholders to renovate their apartments so there are more construction workers going in and out over the course of days where movers who work in teams of 3 are present for an approximate three hour move out. The Coop is allowing door to door deliveries of all sorts and all kinds of services which permit entry into the building and to any floor and into any unit.

So, is any Coop in New York charging a Covid $300 move out Sanitation Fee because they are using a licensed and insured Professional Moving Company to carry out their belongings? And what are the thoughts of charging a sanitation fee to wipe down the front door and elevator buttons of a building only in a move out situation?
Would you still consider it a: ‘if they want to charge you $500 for an hour's extra work by a building employee, it's borderline scam.’ Looking forward to your reply!

Hi, I’m curious what resolution you came to on this? Our coop is trying to charge the same fee. $300. Obviously this is something cooked up by a large management company and getting rubber stamped by coop Boards. I wonder, is your coop managed by First Residential?

My coop can’t provide me with itemized expenses or who will even do this work and I’ve challenged their legal authority to impose a new fee on essential activity, especially in such a targeted way. Their response is they will call the police if I try to move without signing the document that includes agreeing to the $300. Unbelievable.

Curious if you were able to fight this successfully and if so what was effective.

Thanks.

Hi Dave: So, sorry to learn that you are denied the right to an itemize bill, pressured, intimidated and threatened with “will call the police if I try to move without signing the document”. This is a money-grab and price gouging by board and mgt that targets only those who move out. I do hope and wish you stand up to them.

There is no scientific data that moving companies increase Covid risk or spread.
Everyday delivery ppl, construction, mail delivery and residents enter and exit a building but they don’t charge them a sanitation fee, right?
Why because they can’t demand, force or threaten them into it. But you, they have you in between a rock and a hard place. I wish more would chime in so this abusive predatory fee could get some attention.

If you haven’t, send mgmt & board an email requesting the all the details for documentation. Ask why & how isn’t the sanitation fee covered by the flip tax fees, too.

I’m curious was the “will call the police” verbally said by the mgmt, the super or do you have this in writing? If in writing, that is Gold and next step have a lawyer write a letter asking where in the governing docs is this fee permitted, name of company performing the service and an itemized bill –all of the details. If you could contact the cleaning company to try to negotiate their fee down. It might cost you a some $ for the lawyer but hopefully less than the $300 sanitation fee, so you would have still paid less than the full $300 and will have gotten the feeling of winning.

When you do move out, take before and after photos/video of the elevator so they then don’t claim you damaged it. No, I don’t have First Residential, but to not respond to a shareholder’s question they sound nasty, aggressive and punitive, why are mgmt companies like this???

In my building there are board members who won’t wear a mask, can you believe this? This is a walk-up and ppl are huffing and puffing up and down the stairs and not wearing a mask, now that is Covid spread risk.

I encouraged the person moving out to email the board president that the fee was excessive, no proof of movers spreading Covid and the president refunded their money BUT the refund was done begrudgingly, as though it came out of their own pocket and they would go hungry for 2 days. Also, I received grief over it and most likely if I were to now move, I would be penalized and charged double the sanitation fee.

How do we get a habitat mag lawyer to respond to this sanitation fee?
Please do share how you will fight this fee and the outcome. Good Luck.

theWhitney at 200 east 90th st is charging a $900 sanitation fee for professional movers.

At "the Whitney at 200 east 90th st is charging a $900 sanitation fee for professional movers" that is a disgrace and shame on them, too!

While I understand that you choose to live in a pet restricted community, it is difficult to understand why a situation like this this would bother anyone.

ERA's are obedient, well behaved and quiet. They provide emotional support, assistance , companionship and love to their owners.

Your house rules limit the number of ESA's a shareholder may own. It doesn't infringing upon a resident's rights by restricting an overnight guest who also requires an ESA.


https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/enforcement/2019...

https://adata.org/guide/service-animals-and-emotional-support-animals

https://www.servicedogcertifications.org/ada-service-dog-laws/

NYS guidelines state that more than one person can be in an elevator, but only if they've been sheltering together during the quarantine. Non sheltering people should not be in the elevator together. They should only ride the elevator one passenger at a time.

If you google "NYS elevator covid guidelines", you'll see a link to COVID-19: FAQ for Residential Buildings - NYC.gov.

In part, it states that..."Face coverings should be worn when a distance of at least 6 feet cannot be maintained. To avoid crowding, limit the number of people in the elevator at the same time. People should consider only riding the elevator with their own party, taking the stairs or waiting for the next elevator. (Jun 26, 2020)

Thank you Marty for your reply. Unfortunately, it doesn't answer my question. I'm aware of all you've said. This is something a bit different. The most up-to-date info I've read is that COVID CAN remain airborne. I never go into the elevator with anyone else. I always wear a mask. But if someone in the elevator before me wasn't wearing a mask and has coughed, sneezed, cleared their throat, talked on their phone—done anything that spreads whatever is in their exhalation—a subsequent person in that elevator can be affected. I am hoping the governor will take this into account and not just talk about the 6' requirement, but masks to be worn in a small space PERIOD.

I have already reached out to his office. Let's see what happens.

Thank you.

Unfortunately, there is no good answer for most buildings. I found this article about the hangtime of the virus in the atmosphere: https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/coronavirus-resource-center#:~:text=Aerosolized%20coronavirus%20can%20remain%20in,up%20to%20three%20hours.

Unless your elevator has surveillance camera monitoring there is no way to know who rode in it before, how long ago, were they wearing a mask, and did they sneeze, cough, etc. It's a reality we all have to deal with. The only alternative I can think of is using the stairs, but that is not an option for many apartment dwellers.

Thanks Steven. The article was great & I will share it.
I am presently less interested in identifying those without masks, b/c there's no law, no teeth, about it. And that's what I was asking about. Unfortunately, the answer is "no." Also, I don't need to look at videos... I pass people daily. I see, in real time, who does & doesn't wear masks.

I was hoping against hope that there were some new guidelines for apartment buildings—some rules with teeth. But there aren't. I understand my options and the alternatives, and sometimes I do take the stairs (I'm on the 6th floor). But when I want to go bike riding, that's not an option; I must use the elevator.

Thanks.

You''re welcome, DP. I have the same problem with my bicycle you do with yours. I live on the 5th floor and its a real hassle getting the bike up and down the stairs. Whenever I'm anywhere in my building I have my mask on, and will only ride in the elevator solo.

I doubt we'll see any new laws or regulations with any teeth because enforcement will be all but impossible. No building can afford to have a dedicated elevator monitor, let alone find someone willing to continuously ride up and down in an elevator with potential spreaders while observing people's masking behavior. It seems that when people follow the guidelines we do have (masks and >6' separation), the chance of contracting COVID-19 are greatly reduced.

Indeed... And I don't need a monitor, but I did need something in writing. Something clear and specific, where there was none.

So I have made progress, even though there is no law to enforce anything. I finally got the building management to put up signs explicitly about masks in common areas. Four months into this! Now, when I see a fellow resident not wearing one, I can point to the sign and more easily, more safely, ask them to do so. So, that's a start.

Nothing substantial will really happen until this administration wakes up. Personally, I hope when Nov. 4 comes, theirs will be a rude awakening. At that time, we as a society, and as individuals, will have a lot of work to do.

Stay safe. Stay aware. And thanks for your thoughtful input......

My understanding is that the Board needs to submit a conflict of interest report that covers the entire Board's activities. At least that's how we've done it.

I have never heard that our shareholders are supposed to receive a copy of this report. It's supposed to be on file with the proper authorities.

I don't know why you'd say that there is no auditing/enforcement of this requirement. Just because you haven't received the report doesn't mean it hasn't been done. None of our shareholders has ever received this report.

The filing of this report is now the law, so any responsible Board should be in compliance.

Interesting - I had understood that the requirement was to provide the report to shareholders themselves:

"submit an annual report to the shareholders, which shall be signed by each such director"

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/BSC/727

When you say "on file with the proper authorities", can you be more specific? Would that be the NY Attorney General, or some other body?

There is a podcast on this site by Braverman Greenspun titled
"What does the new disclosure law mean for my board?" also: https://www.habitatmag.com/Publication-Content/Legal-Financial/2018/2018-January/Conflict-of-Interest

I was also curious about this since i have never received this report either

I don't know which agency gets the report. Our managing agent takes care of it by filing the report after the Board signs it.

I guess we've been lucky in that none of our Board members has anything resembling a conflict of interest based on how we conduct business.

Sounds like the podcast suggested by NYC might be worth a listen. Please update all of us if you receive additional information. Thanks.

Hi philc,
Did you receive BCL727or find out any further information regarding this report?

Hi,

No - I am still yet to (ever) receive one of these reports from my co-op.

As best I can tell, there is absolutely no enforcement of this requirement, although I'd love to be wrong about that.

Thanks, hope that helps!

Because " The law is completely silent on enforcement and oversight, and does not contain any penalties for violations", boards are not adhering to this law, also shareholders are either unaware of the disclosure report
or do not want to be considered trouble makers by requesting the report.

Like other BCL's legal intervention would probably be required. What is the point of having a law that is moot?

You might want to contact Diana Nickel 212-416-8131  at the Attorney Generals office or anyone on lthe below list.

https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/ref-public-directory.pdf

Hi -

I'm sorry for the aggravation you're going through with the exemptions. Between lost documents, name inconsistencies, and dealing with the DoF in general, it can get very annoying.

To answer your question about responsibility, in my opinion (and I am not a lawyer) individuals who receive tax abatements are responsible to make sure they properly qualify. In the case of STAR, Senior Citizen, R/E tax, and other abatements, you receive the abatements from the DoF and not from the co-op. Your co-op acts as a sort of agent and pass-through for the DoF to get the funds to you.

In my building, the managing agent works closely with shareholders to resolve problems with abatements, but they are not required to. It's a service we ask our MA to perform.

I agree it sounds like your MA is giving you the runaround. My first suggestion would be to contact your board president or other board member and explain the situation to them. Ask for their help with making the MA more responsive.

You might also try contacting the owners of the other co-ops listed on the MA's letter. The more aggrieved shareholders who are involved, the more leverage you all will have.

You need to try to stop the clock if you're up against any deadlines. Call the DoF (or see if there's anywhere online) you can enter your registration number to confirm any deadlines and ask for an extension.

Best of luck to you,
--- Seve

Thank you steven. I did send an email to the D.O.F. With the reg # I received from the person I did speak to. I included a copy of the acceptance letter, and mailing return receipt. I also reached out to a board member so I guess there is nothing left to do but wait for their responses. The M.A. omitted the other owners names and unit 's and just put my name and unit number on the form. I guess it was an oversight that he left the other block numbers. Thanks again :-)

Hi Steve,
I don’t know who is giving you the thumbs down. I think you have a crazy stalker named Connie.

Just want you and all the other contributors to know I appreciate the advice I receive from this site.

Personally, I don't think there should be a rating system on a FREE site, where people are giving their time and sharing their experiences.
:-)

Thanks, NYC. I think of it as simply returning what I received back when I first joined my board. I didn't discover Habitat and these forums until a few years later, but CNYC with their monthly newsletters and annual symposiums were invaluable in the beginning.

As for a stalker... At my age, I never imagined I'd have my very own groupie. Kind of honored, and tickled. ;-)

Stay safe.

We used Vertical Systems Analysis and thought they did a good job.

307 West 36th Street 8th Floor

New York, NY 10018

T: 212.989.5525

Answering my own question, after a followup discussion with our managing agent and other board members: we're going to have the Secretary do a verbal roll call and record attendance from that. This works for us because we have only 33 units in our co-op, but I can imagine it would be onerous for larger buildings.

Check out Item #3 in this article to see if it suites your requirements

https://zapier.com/blog/zoom-tips/

Thanks for the pointer to those Zoom tips, which can help automate the roll call and automatically record participant info. For our meeting next week, we may use both a traditional roll call *and* the Zoom-supplied techniques as a backup.

You're welcome and good luck. If you come up with something that works, please post it here. I'm sure it will help others with similar needs.

--- Steve

I am definitely not a professional but do have some knowledge on the subject, so please take my answer for what it's worth.

Most hallway and other common area emergency lights are self-contained units. They rely on an internal rechargeable battery (lead-acid, like a car battery). They are wired into the building's 110V A/C power so they are constantly being charged. If the power goes off and the unit no longer senses the 110V, it automatically kicks over to battery. I think units may be obtained with different guaranteed minimum run-times, but I am not sure of this.

I'm assuming you live in a co-op or condo, so as for who has overall responsibility for the proper selection, care, testing, and other maintenance, the co-op or condo board does. The board can and almost always will engage the super, managing agent, or third party contractor for the hands-on requirements. But if the FDNY does an inspection and finds emergency lighting deficiencies, the violation will be written up against the building's owner and it will be the board's responsibility to cure the defects.

I hope this helps,
--- Steve

Thank you Steve. That's helpful. Yes, a coop.

I may have misunderstood the intended purpose of the emergency back-up lights. I thought they were supposed to stay on, or at least be light-sensitive so they would come back on again after dark if the electricity was still off.

But a firefighter friend told me they were only supposed to be on at the beginning of the emergency (when the electricity cut off), e.g. to help people get out of the building. (But then what?) So they may have worked as they were supposed to, but it still seems dangerous to me.

Do you know anything about that, or where I can look for the info?

Thx.

Hi DP - As your firefighter friend explained, emergency lighting is used for emergency situations, such as helping to evacuate a burning building. It is not intended to be used for normal residential illumination. I'm guessing that people would not be allowed back into a building until the FD has certified it safe for occupancy. This would include appropriate lighting.

In the event only a part of the building was damaged and the rest could be legally occupied, it would be the responsibility of the building owner to make all repairs to damaged or destroyed common systems, such as electricity and lighting. I would surmise the FD would not allow re-entry until everything was back up to code.

Emergency lighting runs on battery, which has a limited rated illumination length. Once the battery is depleted, it would need to be recharged before being used again.

Thanks again, Steven.

It was an odd emergency (Con Ed failure which affected a few buildings)—one outside of the usual definitions and parameters. There was no damage to the building, and no one was required to leave. I guess this was just one of those events that buildings really aren't prepared to handle—especially in an economically challenged neighborhood where the thought of going to a hotel didn't even cross my mind... and in the middle of a pandemic where we're mostly sheltering in place.

All seems OK now. Con Ed had to replace cables going into the buildings.

Thanks again!

You can pass a house rule that covers mask-wearing and social distancing, in either a specific or a generalized way. You might want to ask your attorney for guidance on the phrasing. Afterwards, anyone who fails to comply is violating a house rule and is subject to whatever penalties your Proprietary Lease allows for breaking house rules.

A difficulty our attorney warned us about in the past: authority to impose fines must originate in the Proprietary Lease. So your board may not be able to impose a fine even for egregious violations of house rules.