it would be under the fire code. where i douldnt know. Your insurance company may know as doormats are an issue with most insurance companies.
pg

The whole thing (if there is NO fire code for these) boils down to liability for the building:

1. If I were to quote anything, it would be the proprietary lease to which the person subscribed out of free will: what IS defined as CO-OP PROPERTYv. what belongs to the assigned shares. The board is free to legislate on the Co-op property even without any governmental law. It belongs to the co-op and it's the board responsibility to see to it that nothing in these areas become a liability that will cost money to its shareholders (WHERE IS FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY???). No wonder TV antennaes including satellite dishes may be banned from the outside structure if you wish to clamp down on their installation. IN fact, the government has a strong statement for these.


2. The mat is the shareholder or renter, but it is placed in a common area under co-op responsibility; thus, you can declare it "ABANDONED" property and eventually dispose it if knowing the owner you provide notification (consult your co-op attorney for best procedure) and if your House Rules state "No articles in hallway including doormats -- well perhaps you specify doormats separately as a no item in hallways, for the case is the same.

3. If the infamous doormat or object in the hallway is the cause of someone's fall, the building is dragged into the liability and not the owner of the mat, who can tell you it was "abandoned property; after all, it was in co-op property.

AdC

Under the fire code it falls under "Obstruction of Egress".
Pg

The problem with that approach, ba, is that the co-op could be liable if someone trips on a doormat while trying to exit the apartment in an emergency. If you were a co-op owner (and perhaps you are), would you want to pay an assessment to cover the legal costs involved? Or would you prefer to have your neighbors obey the law?
Steve

that is absolutely ridiculous. If people triped over doormats on any kind of regular basis, mankind would not not have invented the doormat.. that is stupid. even in a ruch the chances are incredibly slim of tripping over a doormat unless you are a drunk.
all respectable coops I know have doormats - especialy ones with tile floors (ie the floor and hallways are fireproof). sorry - anyone who tries to make it their petty agenda to remove their nighbors doormat is a dork. I checked withthe local firehouse - they do NOT care - they tell me the average doormat is not a problem and this is only the kind of thing that concerns buisybodies.

Big Al,

I am sorry to say that doormats or anything else that is stored in the hallway is very dangerous, if there is a fire or a blackout the hallways are smokey/dark and yes people will trip over them I'seen happen already in my building when there was a fire on one of the floors.

You want a doormat, you must lay it inside of your apartment door.

Big Al,

I am sorry to say that doormats or anything else that is stored in the hallway is very dangerous, if there is a fire or a blackout the hallways are smokey/dark and yes people will trip over them I'seen happen already in my building when there was a fire on one of the floors.

You want a doormat, you must lay it inside of your apartment door.

Sorry to have to disagree with you on this one, Big Al, but you're wrong.

It's an FDNY ordinance that doormats are prohibited.

That said, my coop does not enforce the rule -- although we do point out that if we are fined because of an individual's misdeeds, the building pays the fine but puts it on the individual's account.

I don't think the rule refers to doormats at the entrance of a building, just those in front of individual apartments (but I could be wrong).

As for being drunk ... if a fire happens in the building on the night I'm drinking my favorite bottle of wine, and when I evacuate my apartment I slip on someone else's doormat and break an arm or lose a tooth, I would not hesitate to seek damages from the doormat's owner.

As for the local firehouse ... they may not care, but that doesn't mean doormats are not prohibited. (Just try asking a cop to write a ticket for someone honking his horn because traffic isn't moving fast enough -- it's illegal, but do you think the cop cares enough to write a ticket?)

Steve

idiotic. there woukld be no assessment - if some moron managed by some miracle to trip on a doormatt - (and hello probably it would be his own doormat since it is in front if his/her door) - buiulding insuracne covers this kind of thing.

I understand, and respect, all the pro and con comments made here about doormats. We never prohibited them, but in June '05 when a new owner was moving into one of our apts, a moving man tripped on the doormat as he was carrying in a marble pedestal. He dropped it, fell down against it, and knocked out two teeth. Our co-op's insurance had to pay all his dental expenses, about $10-12K. Since then we don't allow doormats anymore.

I just wanted to say that you don't have to be an "idiot" or a "moron" to trip on a doormat. Accidents do happen.

I totally dig it - sorry about prior emails postings - I just felt the vibe of a buisybody neighbor coming through and am very sentitive to that. BP - you are the best web- poster out there. you say things in a totally unoffenseve and wise manner. thank you.

And who pays for building insurance, ba? You do (if you're in a co-op or condo) through your monthly fees. As for idiots and morons, well, they're the kinds of people who are most likely to sue. If you can make a claim to your insurance company, your rates will go up -- just like car insurance after an accident that's your fault.

But insurance is unlikely to cover the doormat problem because insurance rarely covers illegal actions -- such as violating FDNY ordinances.

So if there's no insurance to cover the lawsuit, and the building loses, it comes out of the building's pockets. Which are yours. So unless your building has a huge reserve fund, you and your neighbors would likely have to pay through an assessment.

Here's a suggestion. If you don't like the law, try to change the law instead of ignoring it. Write your city council member and complain to the FDNY.

Until it's off the books, boards have a duty to enforce it.

This is the 1st time I used this site. Answers were from absolutely incorrect to helpful in pursuit of fact - not opinion. The law does not specify doormats BUT multiple dwellings public halls.
The law is "means of egress shall be kept free and clear of encumberances at all times....
Abstract: Rules of the City of New York -. Title 28 Housing Preservation and Development §25-221 Obstruction of Exits Used as Means of Egress in Case of Fire in Various Multiple Dwellings. (a) In every multiple dwelling, public halls, stairs, corridors and passageways and every part thereof used as means of egress sh
http://24.97.137.100/nyc/rcny/title28_25-221.asp
size 2725 bytes - 4/3/2007 4:23:06 PM GMT

Obviously, even the law could be debated as to what constitutes an "encumbrance." In other words, we are talking about a claim or liability that is attached to a property. So, those who have stated "liability issue" may not have quoted the law, but know that a mat may pose a liability issue to the building.

A building inspector may or may not see a mat as an encumbrance just like the New York Times or other paper left in front of an apartment may be taken as an encumbrance. So, a mat just like a paper may be potential encumbrances in a hallway as opinions are so divergent.

AdC

I like your reasoning. Would you consider that a newspaper: is removed daily a doormat is always out.

up to the building inspector to decide is not in my experience how a law works

why escalate a difference.

There was a interesting film introduction to the Tribeca Film Festival with a tenant knocking on the door of another tenant who is keeping an alligator in his apartment.

On the grounds it was not specifically prohibited by the Proprietary Lease

Sorry. I just pressed the response without one. But here it is:

The law in all its wisdom is wide open to cover ALL circumstances that may cause an encumbrance (potential liability). Obviously, something becomes an encumbrance, because there is a claim and there was a cause to the fall.

What is a potential liability in a common area?

1. A doormat (yes). It can become an encumbrance because someone may cause someone to slip and fall.

2. A newspaper that is not removed the minute it was dropped in front of a door. Yes... a person who just happened to come after the newspaper guy may just trip and fall.

3. A carpet that is not properly stretched or is torn, which may cause the heel to catch and trip and fall.

4. An uneven pavement made by a defective tile - trip and fall.

5. The wax on the floor that may cause a slip and fall, even when the floor is not wet.

YES... these are encumbrances in a common area. Not just a bicycle or a refrigerator or the old milk box in addition tot the doormat.

This is why when you are on a board or you are a manager of a builidng you look for these types of deficiencies and correct them. The wax example is just a problem in many bulidngs. In fact, I have seen buildings that wax was totally removed from a tiled floor to avoid slip and fall claims. For many years it looked terrible, but the company could not take any more of these types of accidents.

AdC

AdC - I can see why bldgs would stop waxing lobby/hallway floors to avoid slip-and-fall claims. There are non-skid tiles that come in many nice colors/patterns-like the ones people put in bathroom and kitchen floors. I know 2 bldgs that installed them in their hallways and they haven't had any complaints or accidents. Maybe a good alternative?

Thank you, BP. I have seen wonderful no-wax tiles and I have a wonderful ceraminc tile in my kitchen that is extremely good to prevent slip and falls.

The point I was raising with Lefty is that an encumbrance is not an object but a "potential liability." Therefore, the law is so comprehensive that a board, landlord, or management company must look for potential liability in common egres areas (e.g., hallways, lobbies, internal evacuation stairways). This is not just limited to a bike, a shopping cart, an old milk box or lab box in a commercial space, but to other things like an unstretched carpet or a slippery floor due to wax. IN fact today, I have a great problem with the cable company and their subcontractors who just out of carelessness throw to the floor the metal ends or connectors to the pavement. These metal connectors become real encumbrances if someone where to step on them. Therefore, I ask the staff to make sure they let the subcontractors know what is expected of them at the end of the job and even call the cable company and religiously report their subcontractors if they leave junk on the floor.

So, common hallways are supposed to be free of encumbrances. It is up to those with responsibility over common space to legislate what they will be tolerant to allow in their hallways, i.e., mats (yes-no), newspapers, etc.

AdC

AdC - I agree re: what constitutes a "potential liability. BTW, we had a problem with cable men leaving junk on floors too. It was resolved but sadly. Before our no-dog policy, a SH's puppy ate a bit of cable from the hallway floor. The cable man working in that hallway didn't clean up and was leaving as the SH left his apt. It happened in a flash. Exposed filaments on the cable punctured something and the puppy hemorrhaged. We had hallway video of the whole thing. It went to court and the cable company was found liable. They've been very conscientious ever since but what a shame that it had to come about that way.

Doormats are not permitted:
1. They are a tripping hazard
2. They interfere with vacuuming by our maintenance staff
3. They interfere with carpet shampooing by our maintenance staff.
4. What if the maintenance staff does not replace a doormat properly and either the resident or another person trips?
5. Sadly a suit arises in today’s litigious world
6. We send a letter, if someone places a doormat outside their door
7. The rules prohibit doormats – simple, that’s it.

Insurance you say!
o Don’t pass it off to the insurance carrier.
o What happens when you have a claim?
o The carrier settles rather than litigate, simple as that
o What happens when you have many claims?
o Your rates rise? Or you are asked for a higher deductible.
o Either way the building bears the “financial” burden.
o What happens if you have too many claims?
o Your carrier cancels your insurance policy, just as a carrier would cancel an automobile policy when there are repetitive claims.

If someone wants a doormat, it is best placed inside the owner’s apartment.