HG - Read the article "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" on p. 26 of Habitat's November 2008 issue or on their website. A few years ago a coop tried to ban SHs from smoking in apts. It caused problems, but things are changing.

This article says that some coops are making a transition to a "non-smoking building" by prohibiting smoking by sublet tenants and/or new SHs, but grandfathering existing SHs. It sounds like a good way to get this started.

My coop has 8 apts per floor. Our floors are small, and people in 5 of the 8 apts on my floor smoke. Some people also smoke cigs and "other substances" in the stairwell. I have 2 air purifiers but the odor is still awful and permeates my furniture, clothing, etc. I dread winter because sometimes I have to turn off the heat and open windows to get the stench of smoke out. We have smokers on other floors so it's a building problem.

HG, read the Habitat article and talk to your coop attorney. There are some things you can do.

Thank you for your info, I will read the Nov HabMaz ... However,is there anyone who has actually taken action.. tried to change the bylaws, gone the legal rt?

We in our CoOp are not in favor of too many restrictions, but we have a number of elderly and others with helth problems, this could be a health issue.
HG

HG - The Habitat article mentions buildings that have, or plan to, amend their by-laws regarding smoking.

our building has had problem shareholders with smoke and other "substances" permeating common areas and units for years. There have also been problems with smoke coming from our co-op
s private balconies and yards. What's frustrating is it's been easier to get landlords and tenants next door to us to curtail the smoking when it migrates to our buiding, and our own shareholders take a miliant stance and abuse their fellow shareholders. The smokers of whatever were problem shareholders/ difficult personalities in other ways such as arrears, lifestyle and hygiene issues.(I am not saying all smokers are difficult, but ours have been!). By not nipping the "other substances" issue in the bud by calling the police--it is illegal in NY- Rockafeller Laws substantiate calling plice--we shot ourselves in the foot. However, the cigarette smoke problem is now being addressed by our attorney in the scope of a larger complaint and we've been told that secondhand smoke is no longer an ambigious area. Read the Poyce case at 22 west 15th street. A Board and owner were deemed at fault for not making good faith efforts to curb smoke from entering another unit subleased by a couple from the owner. Apparently, this has set a precedent and smoke is being considered to be dangerous to health in the same way chemical and other noxious odors are. It is not just atributed to "this is NYC and noise and smoke are part of living here."

I'm a assistant resident manager in a high end luxury building for a major developer in the city. When we have a problem like this, 1st line of defense is to make sure you seal up all the electrical outlets, caulk the base boards/molding make sure the windows are sealed properly. Also the smoker has to ventilate his/her apt properly. What you need to do is look at the lease/ house rules to verify that this is in writing. If this is not in the house rules make an amendment to the house rules with a stipulation, which will mean a violation, then the board/owner will decide what the outcome will be. Remember, your all neighbors in a community, try diplomacy first, see the the resident will cooperate to cease or move the smoking to one room instead of the entire apt.

When I hear people talk about cigarette smoke penetrating their apartment from another, I always think of odor = smoke. My question is a simple one: What kind of cigarette, tobacco or other form of pipe provides smoke that infiltrates long after the person has stopped smoking? Do people see real smoke, that blue puff that comes out of someone's mouth or is it the odor that remains in the air, clothing, hair, etc that disturb people?

Unfortunately, I tremble when I hear smoke, because it takes a lot of people puffing to make a cloud that may invade other apartments.

Would someone clarify for me or am I a bit confused?

AdC

My feeling is that the smoke from cigarettes is the physical form that contains the poisons and carcinogens and migrates from one apt to another and the "odor" is what is the proof that these molecules are permeating another unit. I'm sure a scientist could break it down more but according to the people that make the hepa air cleaner I bought to clean the migrating cigarette smoke from my unit, smoke particles are large and require a special absorbant charcoal filter to trap the particles. However, I read that the gases that precede the actual smoke odor are more noxious than the smoke. Does this answer your question?

The explanation is great, thank you. But, without being facetious, I would like to ask you: Don't you think that the smoke emitted by a single cigarette smoker smoking will not dilute over distance due to air volume in the room? How much of this smoke is going to migrate to another apartment through electrical conduits, baseboards and holes?


Similarly, I get the aroma of cinammon bread from an industrial bakery located 5 blocks away from the apartment parking lot. Is the smell of cinammon proof that cinammon is present in the parking lot in significant quantities? What about the smell of fried fish in a hallway? Does it proof that particles of fish and penetration of fish is in the hallway?

Don't get me wrong, smoke travels, but it takes a small army of cigarette smokers or a discotheque full of people to generate the type of smoke that would invade apartments.

This is where I question whether odor (not to penetrate another person's apartment) = smoke.


AdC

The explanation is great, thank you. But, without being facetious, I would like to ask you: Don't you think that the smoke emitted by a single cigarette smoker will not dilute due to the air volume in the room? How much of this smoke is going to migrate to another apartment through electrical conduits, baseboards and holes?

I get the aroma of cinammon bread from an industrial bakery located 5 blocks away from the apartment parking lot. Is the smell of cinammon proof that cinammon is present in the parking lot in significant quantities? What about the smell of fried fish in a hallway? Is this proof that fish particles are now present in the hallway?

Don't get me wrong, smoke travels, but it takes a small army of cigarette smokers or a discotheque full of people to generate the type of smoke that would "contaminate" and eventually invade apartments through exhaust systems and crevices.

This is where I question whether odor (that should not penetrate another person's apartment) = smoke.


AdC

Fish "particles" will not give you cancer, or, hopefully, set off asthma or other serious allergies. The reason secondhand smoke is being taken seriously in courts these days is because the surgeon general has legitimized the serious health issues caused by secondhand smoke/odor etc. It's not akin to strong perfume odors (which can cause allergies)or cooking odors though those can be restricted under the "unreasonable odors must not permeate other units or common areas" clause in house rules. Secondhand smoke has been proven to cause cancer and that has evolved into an actionable violation that has been upheld in the courts.

And, yes, the smoke/odor from one cigarette can and does migrate through floors/outlets. Our Board has checked out complaints of this nature and we've seen one cigarette produces this insidious smoke that travels and is very evident in adjacent units.

You sound angry. Yet, you cannot convince me that smoke from a lonely smoker is not diluted in a large volume of air and that the odor does not indicate presence of smoke.

Sorry, but the topic becomes rather emotional and statement repeated of what is well know: secondary smoke causes cancer; but, is odor too? I think this is a new one!
AdC

I lived in a building where a resident lived on the lobby floor across from the elevator. She was a chain smoker and rarely left her apartment. The smoke/odor was horrible. When she opened her door smoke would escape to the common hallways. The rug and the outside of her door were brown from nicotine stains. We put a deodorizer in the hallway and advised her of the complaints that were being received from other owners. She was receptive to the complaints and tried to smoke near an open window. The situation remained the same. It was an embarassement to take a friend to your apartment and have to smell cigarette smoke.
I believe that smoke odor is the same as second hand smoke. How would the outside of her door to her apartment and the carpet be brown from nicotine? I guaranty that everytime you waited for the elevator you got to breathe some second hand smoke. With that said I believe that smoke and odor is the same.

How do we know the smoker was lonely? Maybe she was happy to be alone and left to her smoke. Maybe her husand left her because of secondhand smoke. Maybe she loves her cigarettes more than life itself. Sorry, I couldn't resist. As an ex 2 pack a day smoker, I know what it is like to be addicted, but as someone who gave it up 25 years ago, I have little patience for inhaling other people's smoke/odor/carcinogens/particles whatever. If we wanted to expose ourselves to the risks of any and all of the above, we can smoke firsthand and suffer the consequences. In a community you have to go with the socially accepted norm and that is not to inflict your lifestyle on other people. It's the basis of civility and without civility and respect for other people, life in a co-op hasn't got a chance. It is very draining and not happy work for the Board to make shareholders comply. Back and forth with counsel takes enormous time and energy from an unpaid Board and we have to sacrifice our personal lives for the sake of the greater good.

I think AdC meant "lone smoker," not "lonely smoker." In any case, his strong defense of smoking odors is very odd, especially that cinnamon comparison. Smell operates on the existence of microscopic particles and not waves. Thought it may stretch the bounds of AdC's imagination, particles can travel surprising distance ... and even leaving aside the well-documented effects of secondhand smoke, cigarette odor is both noxious and obnoxious. It's a warrant of habitability issue -- and he ever-helpful Joseph Shkreli put everything in exactly the right, proactive context.